Did Jesus exist in the beginning with God?
I have been a follower of Jesus for years and have spent a lot of time reading His Word, so I sometimes forget that not everybody knows the basic beleifs of Christianity. I take it for granted that people just believe the stuff every Christian should know.
Take for example this simple question, “Did Jesus exist in the beginning with God?” Before anything was created, before time, did Jesus exist in the beginning? I asked sixteen professing believers I work with this question, and was shocked at how few knew the answer. Twelve of those sixteen did not believe that Jesus existed in the beginning, and was just the first created thing.
Did Jesus exist in the beginning?
John 1:1-2 simply states this when it says
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
And who was the Word? Just a few verses later John clearly tells us
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” (John 1:14-15)
Who was it that became flesh to dwell among us, the only begotten of the Father (John 3:16)? Who was it that John bore witness to? It was Jesus. Jesus existed in the beginning with God, and not just existing with God, but Jesus was God in the beginning! (He is still God today of course. 🙂 )
Isaiah the prophet heard a message from God where God the Father said
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘ I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6)
God is the First and the Last, nothing existed before God and nothing will exist after Him, He is it, the first and the last. In Revelation Jesus identifies himself as ” I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” (Revelation 22:13) The Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the greek alphabet, in English it would be the A and the Z. There are no letters before A, and none after Z. Jesus is the first and last, the beginning, and the end.
How is it that both God the Father and Jesus can be the first and the last? This is only possible because Jesus is God. Remember what John 1:1 said, “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Both are God, both are one being, one diety, even though they are individual.
I Am
In the Old Testament God would refer to himself as simply “I Am” (Exodus 3:14). That in itself is an awesome statement, which I will cover in a future article. Jesus later when talking to the Jews told them “Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”” (John 8:58). Jesus is not only saying that he existed since before his physical birth on earth, but he is identifying himself as being God, as being the I Am. Jesus again identified himself as the I am when he was being arrested in the garden. The soldiers asked if Jesus was “Jesus of Nazareth” and Jesus replied in such away that the soldiers fell to the ground. “Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.” (John 18:6)
Jesus is the Creator
When God is creating man He says “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;” (Genesis 1:26). Who is God talking to here? Who is God refereing to by saying “Us” and “Our”? God is not a single being but three, completely seperate beings, three deities that are the same. The Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1). This is an example of how Jesus did exist in the beginning.
Not only was Jesus with God in the beginning, before creation, but Jesus is the creator. John 1:3 says “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” Jesus did not come to die for his Father’s creation, but his own. Isn’t this amazing? Jesus knew what he would have to go through, he knew all of the suffering he would face before he created us, yet he still choose to do so!
Why is this important?
The final question I want to look at is why is it important that Jesus existed in the beginning with God?
If Jesus did not exist in the beginning with God, then you must conclude that Jesus was not God and therefor could not live a perfect life and die for our sins, or you must conclude that God can make other gods. If God could make other gods then it makes God a lot less unique in the universe and we could claim that there are other gods to follow and Jesus isn’t the only way.
No, Jesus had to be God, part of the Trinity, One God. As we read and study the Bible, and as we get to know Jesus closer, we cannot help but conclude that Jesus did indeed exist in the beginning with God.
Did Jesus exist in the beginning with God?: I have been a follower of Jesus for years and have spent a lot of ti… http://bit.ly/jQPQZ9
IT IS “The CHRIST“ in the beginning the Word made flesh…
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him,and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Daniel 9:24-25) Messiah the Prince… Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matthew 16:16)
Christ existed in the beginning with God…
Very good article! May God continue to bless you.
Thank you for the comment Steven. I am glad you enjoyed the article. 🙂
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Thank you very much for this. It was a pleasure to study on this after skipping through many websites denying Jesus as God.
“And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” (1 John 4:3)
Very well explained brother!
I agree that the scripture says that jesus is god’s word and that god is plural when he created man ( male and female ) and that everything came into being through god’s word since he said and it was done. but to think that jesus as such existed with god seems to me like something from the urantia book. I have to dwell into the word more 🙂
Hi Felipe,
Thanks for your post.
This is a heady topic, no?
You said:
“but to think that jesus as such existed with god seems to me like something from the urantia book. I have to dwell into the word more…”
Amen brother. It is always good to go back to the Word.
It seems maybe you’re struggling with the ‘as such.’ I’m assuming the ‘as such’ references the way we find Jesus in the Gospels. If that was what Jon was claiming in his article, I can understand the confusion. But I don’t think that is the case.
If your struggle is with finding Jesus as we find him in the Gospels, i.e. as a human, in the beginning before there were humans, I think I have an answer for you.
If you look at John 1:14, you have the key: The Word became Flesh.
The Word is the identity of Christ before the “incarnation,” a fancy theological term for the act of the Son of God (2nd Person of the Trinity) becoming human while retaining his deity.
Jesus wasn’t as he is now in the beginning with God. He submitted to the Father and took on human nature, not a fallen, flawed human nature, but a sinless one.
He endured a human life, died a human death and rose from the grave–all to obey the Father’s will.
But when the Father Raised him and Glorified him, Jesus didn’t go back to being like he was before the incarnation, because the incarnation was/is permanent.
So, yes, Jesus was with God in the beginning, but as the Logos. He hadn’t taken on humanness yet.
There is a Trinity, but the Son of God, he changed forever at his conception in the womb of Mary. Today He sits at the right hand of God, as the God-Man. This is one of the key mysteries of the faith that no one understands fully.
However, if you want to see the idea that Jesus is God and man brought out as fact by John the Baptist and Jesus himself, keep reading the Gospel of John.
You don’t need the Urantia book, because this extraordinary mystery is in the Bible.
Jesus is god there is no trinity John 1:1 clearly states that jesus was in the beginning with god but only in the mind of god thats why adam and eve didnt catch god off guard when they sinned because god had a plan since the beginning. Jesus was conceived of the holy spirit and brought forth by mary (woman) the only holy spirit we know in the OT is god (yaweh) so for anyone to say they are different and god was with jesus in the beginning needs to rightly divide the word of truth and get that revelation of who jesus christ really is
Only in the mind of God? Where is that ever in scripture? And how do you rectify that point of view compared to the other points I brought up in this article?
Hi Brian,
Thanks for your post. Your claims made me curious to understand more about where you’re coming from.
From my church background, the Trinity is a basic Christian concept and John 1:1-18 is one of the classic proof texts for it.
Did you mean to say Jesus was a thought in God’s mind before Creation, because God is all knowing?
If that is not the case, my apologies for misunderstanding. Posts leave out the human element so much of the time. If you would, I’d enjoy hearing what you meant to communicate.
If that is the case, and you interpret John 1:1-18 is teaching that Jesus was a thought in God’s mind, would you share with everyone the method you used to interpret John 1:1-18 this way?
Brian Wright there is a trinity…god presenting himself in three personifications should not be a strange thing. We ourselves carry three personifications…we are a father to someone (our children), we are husbands to someone (our wives), and we sons to someone (our parents) we live in these personifications everyday.But yet in each one our roles are different. Your role as father is one way, your role as a son is another way and still yet your role as a husband would be different also. 3 different roles but 1 person! Amazing
Jesus prayed to His father and said in His form He was not as great as He. 2 distinct beings. The Holy Spirit could only come after Jesus left. And the spirit searches the mind of God for us and lives in us..3 beings, one God, hence trinity. “Go forth and baptize then in the name of thr father the son and the Holy ghost. God said that. He could’ve said my name. He also refers to Himself as plural. The end.
Great article! Amen! He was with God in the beginning, and was God. He became flesh and dwelt among us! The Gospel of John declares the deity of the Son through the entire book! In 1 John he goes on to say, anyone that denies the Father and the Son is that spirit of the anti-Christ. When one denies the very trues of scripture and teaches the WORD was just a thought in Gods mind, they are really denying Jesus of his deity. He now has become just a plan in Gods mind. I say let God be true and every man a liar. The truth is the Son has always been and always will be! The book of Hebrews declares = But of the Son , He (Father) says, Thy throne oh God is forever and ever! Great article man!
Thanks Joey! 🙂
You are not related to Erik Galloway by chance are you? Glad you found my blog. Feel free to subscribe and get our new articles delivered via email.
John 1:1-18 states that the Word was God and with God. And the Word became flesh.
Jesus came in the flesh as man, but was not a man prior to being born in a manger. Jesus was in the form of the Word of God.
God’s Word is literally in the form of what He speaks. God’s Word is also in written form (scripture). God’s Word was also in human form (Jesus as a man).
No man can say that Jesus as a man was in the beginning because He wasn’t the first man. The first man was Adam (1 Cr 15:45)
All things were made for Him (for Jesus Christ) and without Him (the Word) nothing was made. God spoke things and they became. God said…….”let there be this and let there be that.”
In Him was life. (Jhn 1:4) The Word is life.
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. (Jhn 1:14)
You first have God and His Word
Then God’s Word became flesh (Jesus in the form of a man) and dwelt among us. Jesus came in the flesh.
Jesus (the man) died on the cross. (God didn’t die….Jesus did)
God raised Jesus from the dead and was annointed as Christ Jesus (Christ = The Annointed One) and was made a life-giving Spirit.
Then you are stating that Jesus is not God. Jesus called himself the I Am, meaning He was calling himself God and saying that He existed in the beginning.
Greetings. The capitalization is always important because when God spoke and said I AM it was all capitalized. The verse you are referring to is John 8:58 where it states “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” So you can see that “am” is not even capitalized and this statement is accurate because he was the first created man and firstborn of all creation. God created man in his own image and the man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men.
Jesus also replied “why do you call me good? There is no one good but the Father”
We know that God said that he created Man and Women in his image but he said “In OUR Image”. To me that proves that Jesus pre-existed according to Genesis. One Hebrew word for Go is Elohim , which to my understanding is Uni-Plural. Singular in the fact that it means a Group thus One Group, Plural in the sense that perhaps God was taking to Jesus and Himself at creation. We know from the Gospel of John that Jesus stated that No one has seen the Father except he who is from the Father. The New Testament also states in various places that Jesus was God come in the flesh. Any thoughts on this matter.
P.S. I have a copy of the Complete Jewish Bible which helped me reach my conclusion along with prayer.
Hi, Jon
Your blog has been very helpful to me! I’m involved in spiritual debates with a Mormon friend and your resources are very useful. Thanks!
I am a christian but I often get very confused and cannot comprehend the idea of how Christ was there from the beginning (which I believe he was), but I just cannot rap my head around it. I believe in the bible with my whole heart. There is no other God I wish to serve. I just get scared sometimes since I do not understand the trinity but I do believe in it, is it okay that my mind is not able to comprehend God’s amazing love and amazing grace or comprehend that Christ and the holy spirit are separate from the father but also one?
Michelle,
Understanding the nature of God is, well, impossible. It is fun and humbling to study the nature of God, but at some point we need to realize that God is totally beyond comprehension and we just need to accept what is revealed about Him in the Word of God.
Thank you so much for this explanation. It makes so much sense to me. I just recently started studying the bible and I have been stuck on Gen 1:26 and John 1:1-2.
TRULY JESUS IS God and existed from beginning. Thats why He His God
it seems to be it is very clear, if you will honestly seek the word of God you will find from the beginning of time the scriptures taught that God is one, and that He is not a plural triune being, We find it in John 1:14 that He, One, became flesh and dwelt among us. In Deut 6:4 Hear Oh Israel the Lord our God is one. In James 2:19, thou believest in one God, thou doest well, the devils also believe and they tremble. So, with that being said, if there is only one God, this God has a name and it is Jesus!
All one has to do is search the scripture and you will come to the same conclusion. From the beginning of time it has always been the same. He was the I Am, the Alpha and Omega. And in the fullness of time God sent forth His son, His name is Jesus, He was as much God as he was man.
thank you for these very helpful words. i believe jesus do exist before time. because he is the word and throught words(prural) the world is made. confirms the ‘let us’make man into our own image.
by the way, let me ask these question; if jesus claimed to be the son of god is ‘word’ is that mean that father of word(jesus) is THOUGHT? (because “word” comes out from thought)
I do not think that “thought” is God… God is an actual being, not just a thought. Also I do not think that Jesus being called the “Word” is a litteral word.
i am a christian but i don not share in the trinity.God is one and that cant be disputed.what is disputable is when we say there are 3 distinct personality in one GOD.we make God 3 while claiming he is still one.this belief was not held by the early church.Jesus came to grant us eternal life by reconciling us to God almighty he never intended to get us confused of who he is.let this be clearly stated that the WORD of God (also christ the son)proceeded forth and came(sent by God) from GOD into this world in flesh that he may be able to wash away the sins of the world by shedding his blood as a holy sacrifice once and for all. he is the word of God that never goes and come back to God unaccomplished.A servant can is not greater than his master neither can the son be equal with the father which bigot him.Just as christ made it clear that the father is greater than he is and all he does is not of his own initiative but that of the father that sent him.he made this clear to us in order to abolish any confusion that may arise in future.lets not deceive our selves with mysteries that do not really exist for it is not the will of God to get so confused about knowing who is. One of the reasons Jesus came to simplify the essence of knowing God and not to make it difficult for the human mind to grasp.the WORD existed in the begining with God and the word is GOD is very correct in the sense that it is of the substance from God sent fort to accomplish GODS will in creating the world and also becoming flesh to reconcile man to God.the word can not do anything on his own unless it is sent by the father who is all in all.therefore the word is subject to the divine authority of God almighty as it is moved by the holy spirit which is the everlasting power of GOD.The WORD is not really distinct from the spirit they are one substance of the father.John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. No wonder jesus said in John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”.therefore the son of God (the word of God) is spirit.the fact that Jesus is a divine substance from GOD does not make him equal with the almighty GOD himslf .simply put Jesus is the word of God personified and was with God before the world was created. the fact that Jesus existed with God before the foundation of the world could also mean that he was the first of all Gods creation set aside to accomplish Gods will and purpose.For it pleased God to put all things under his feet in order to bring Glory to himself the father.think of this if Jesus is GOD then his name would have been greater than any other name from the begining and so there wont be any need for God Almighty to now exalt and bestow him with a name that is greater than any other name after he had completed the redemption work.the bible states that though jesus being in form of God did NOT count equality with God and was humble till death.it shows clearly that Jesus knowing fully that he being a substance from God almighty did not claim equality with God as we are doing for him because he is humble and doing so would be misleading.
logically speaking if we say jesus is the word of God that means he existed with God and has no begining since Gods word has always being inside God and is a part of God but not GOD in his fullness but as we know nothing is imposible with GOD. we still need to ask ourslves this questions
What PART of GOD Is Not GOD?
Is there any PART of GOD that Is Not GOD?
How much of GOD Is Not GOD?
answer.judging by this fact it can also be said that when jesus is speaking it is God that is speaking but onething should be clear for it is said that in the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.this has obviousely proven that the word of God was set aside and personified by God for the fulfilment of his works since without the word was nothing made that was made then is clear that GoD SET aside his word and used it to creat the worlds by his power and authority.THE WORD CAN DO NOTHING ON HIS OWN.It would have been possible for God to send an angel to accomplish the task of reconciling man to himself but even the angels are not perfect for some of them have also fallen short of his glory .therefore the his WORD personified was to be the perfect tool and sacrifice to ACCOMPLISH BOTH TASK. the WORD bears withness to all that the father has been doing because it started with him who is the first of Gods creation before he reincarnated in the flesh TO SAVE MAN
A simple analogy is this, the words we speak are meant to show our intentions and aspirations which are put fort into action in order accomplish what we want be it physical or otherwise. ours words are a semblance form of who we are and not necessarily us in complete entity because we direct and control what we say and want to say therefore if our words are personified by taking a human form and sent forth it will do and act the same way as we would.Nevertheless it will still obey and recognize the master from whom it proceeded from and would never deem it right to claim equality with him because he alone has the authority and power to send and direct it as he pleases.the word must go and must accomplish what it was sent for before reporting to the one who sent it.It will be impossible for our words to just jump out of our mouth without the expression decision of us to speak it out.for before a person speaks he must first agree withing himself before utering any word.threfore the words can do nothing of his own unless by the express authority of the owner saying and sending it forth
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
jesus said in john 8 verse 43
Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
The Acts of the Apostles in the Bible details the activity of the disciples over a period of thirty years after Jesus was lifted up to heaven. Throughout this period they never refer to Jesus as God. They continually and consistently use the title God to refer to someone else other than Jesus.
Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed the crowd saying:“Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”(Acts 2:22).
Jesus as saying:“…the Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28).
Jesus as saying:“By myself I can do nothing…”(John 5:30).
Toady asked: then who was he?
Timothy 2:5: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
lets consider another verse posted by JESUS IS:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say,’Show us the Father’?” (John 14:6-9)
there is not a single unequivocal statement in the bible where jesus christ says that I am God, he has always talked about the father the one and only God in the heaven.
“…you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.”(John 8:40).this is very important to note.what the prophets and apostles wrote about jesus before and after his coming might have been wrongly interpreted to mean that jesus christ is God almighty.but it would better for us to listen carefully of what jesus said about himself and what he wants us to know about the father that sent him below are excertpts from the bible
to conclude any man who is willing to know who jesus is in relationship to God should just go and read because it explains everything
Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; and when all things shall be subdued unto him (Christ) , then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (I Cor. 15:24, 28).
Look at the word “subject.”
The word “subject” in the verse above is “hupotasso” in the Greek (#5293 in Strong’s Concordance) , and means ” subordinate…to be under obedience .” The root word is “hupo” (#5259 Strong’s) and means ” beneath…in an inferior position .” The Council of Nicea (325 A.D.) declared that Jesus is “co-equal” with God, but the apostle Paul did not know that. He says that Jesus will live eternally “subject” (subordinate, under obedience, and in an inferior position to) God the Father. The Scriptures clearly teach that Jesus has been appointed, anointed, empowered and ordained to build a kingdom and rule over it for 1000 years. But at the end of the millennium he will lay the kingdom at God the Father’s feet .
As this entire topic goes completely against our statement of beliefs I will not be participating in it. Spending our time debating online is never beneficial to either party. Plus your comments about Jesus not being God really undermines the entire Christian faith.
YES Jesus was a Thought in God’s mind Where in the Scripture you ask? 1PETER1:18-21. Look at verse 20 it tells you alot about Jesus. Yes Brian Wright got it right; very few people know this because they are being told a lie. Trinity that’s a lie also you will not find nothing about the trinity in the bible, not even the term WHY, because Trinity is a Catholic term that Man came up with. Oh and the Us in Genesis that’s an easy one to answer Look at WISDOM OF SOLOMON CHAPTER 9:9; this tells you who God was talking too. You have too look this up online if you don’t have it in your bible. Jon Zenor I’m not trying to be mean but I just wanted to state the bible’s opinions Never my own opinions because I leave that at the door everytime I open The Holy Book of Scriptures. If you want to know more just reply back to me. Godbless 🙂
god cannot die ,so how could jesus be god . infact any one who believes jesus was god tecnically denies jesus came inthe flesh,;which is the anti christ for that reason god cannot die , if god died as jesus , and part of his spirit lived on then he could not of paid the price for the remmissin of sins ,the whole senario would of been a farce ,meaninless,//
god cannot ,die ,how could jesus possibly be god;
if jesus was god it technically denies ,he came in the flesh , which is the antichrist , becuse god cannot die , if jesus was god and part of him ;his spirit remained alive ,the he could not have paid the remmision for sin , the whole episode would be a farce;;
Thank you may GOD bless you . It is now pretty explicit I have this question for some time thanks for answering . Now one question: is it okay to have graven images of Christ even though it says not to in the first commandments ???
I think that when Jesus says he is the Word that. He is saying that only by Him can we enter enternal life bc we usually call the Bible the Word of GOD meaning our guidance n Jesus says He is our Shepherd Who leads us to righteousness
And we our his sheep ; His followers of the Word :the Truth
Hey Daisy, actually we don’t call the Bible the Word of God to mean guidance, but because we believe scripture, all of it, to be inspired and breathed by God. So it is literally the Word of God.
But other than that, yes, we are the sheep and He is our Shepard.
Paul and Peter state in their epistles……”Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Messiah”! If Jehovah is this God they are referring to, then how on earth can Jesus be equal to this God? Jesus mentions this same God and Father many times in Revelations as well!
Some good scripture to ponder is John 20:28; ” And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.” Jesus did not rebuke him for calling him God.
Another to ponder is Luke 5:20-24, “And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up your couch, and go into thine house.”
So, since He healed the sick man, it showed He could also forgive sin’s, thus showing Himself to be God, just as they reasoned about in their hearts. God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), as He answered their hearts question, that He indeed was God, God the Son.
Thanks all for your post. I believe Jesus existed before the beginning. I see the different phases/stages of the manifestations of Jesus(Word)
1. Before the beginning of creation
2. at creation
3. after creation
4. at redemption
Can we explain these further? Jesus is called the Word of God. To me God(the Father) is not God without the word(Jesus) because He spoke the word out of Himself. Therefore the Word(Jesus) was inside of Him(God the Father).
Jesus also said that the Father is Spirit. He also said the Word that He spake is spirit. To me the Word is Spirit, The Father i Spirit therefore the Spirit is the Word.
Can we conclude by saying that the Father is the Word, the Spirit is the Word, and Jesus is the Word. I see the Word existing in different instances and phases.
Correct me if i am wrong. but our concern now is to bring out the importance of the word t us today and how does the word exist in our lives, can we say that the Holy spirit is the word existing in our lives today?
God is great and I believe in the trinity, I know our Jesus came down here from his kingdom, and died on the cross for mine and the whole worlds sins. he must love us so much. and after we did to him what we did, he still sits on the right hand side of Gods throne, and makes intercessions for us. I really enjoyed your post, thank you.
IN GOD’S MIND : Jesus, that is Christadelphian’s belief, that He was in God’s mind, and Jesus is only existant from his birth as God’s son, according to CD’s Jesus is the son of God and not God- I understand that Nicean council said that TRINITY was the Godhead, however prior to that I am not sure what christians were thinking. However I do believe that He existed from the beginning. Is God triune God ? not sure, but God acted in Jesus and acts in Holy Spirit.
Jesus did not exist “only in God’s mind”… He existed in every sense except human. Jesus is the one who created everything, so yes, He existed. 🙂
Amen! Wonderful explanation 🙂
Hi Jon, I am still new in Christ, so I don’t know the bible as well as others, but I get confused about John 1:1, because of other scriptures like Matthew 26:39 Jesus pray to the father. So my question is why do he pray to the father if he is God, why do he pray to himself? There are other scriptures where Jesus pray to God. I just don’t understand why God would pray to to himself?
John 1:1 does not just say that God and Jesus are the same, but it also says they are separate. This is the great mystery of God, how can He be 3 persons and 1 at the same time? I don’t have an answer for you there. But if Jesus prayed to God, and they are the same, how much more important is it that WE pray to God?
God is so superior to us and our minds that we cannot comprehend or understand all that had taken place or is in the Bible. Many people try to dispute the Bible and make their own theory but they are not trusting in God’s word. The word is very clear and God wants us to simply Believe, trust and have faith. His word and all writers of the Bible are very clear on how to live like Jesus ,
Jon,
Both in your article, and on Jan 22nd, 2014 you stated that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate from each other. That John 1:1 states separateness. I read John 1:1 and the word separate isn’t there. We know that God is a triune being. I am wondering: if we are made in His image, Spirit, Soul and Body, could it be possible that God is also Spirit (the Father), Soul (the Holy Spirit) and Body (Jesus)? We are also 3 entities – not separate – for one cannot exist without the other. We return to spirit when we die, as did Jesus, yet fully spirit, living in a body here on earth. If God also chose US before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4, didn’t we, in some way, also exist with God as did Jesus? Even if we were just a ‘thought’ in the mind of God, did we then, somehow exist with Him at that time? I know this is heavy, but I could use your insight. Thanks
DEB,
Getting a message like this is a great way to start out my day, forcing me to focus on the Word.
There is a place near where I live that is absolutely beautiful. I love to go there and take pictures. The problem is the photos that I take never seem to capture the beauty that I see with my eyes. If you look at the photograph I have taken (This photo, for example), you can get a general sense of the colors and the environment, but you don’t see everything that is beyond the frame of that photo. You can’t tell the exact depth between the elements within the photo. You can’t hear what I was hearing, smell what I was smelling, or even feel the temperature of the air or feel the relief of the sun warming my skin despite the cold air.
In the same way, we are made in the image of God, simply a simple snapshot of the real thing. The analogy that you bring up of God being in the same way one physical being with three parts, spirit, body, and soul, is okay for a simplistic understanding of who God is, but it comes nowhere near close enough to describe who God really is. While Jesus was on earth in physical form the Father was still in heaven in His form, as was the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is here with us physically today, empowering and working through His church.
Your application of Ephesians 1:4 is interesting, I have never heard that before. But I don’t believe it is entirely accurate. The phrase used “before the foundation of the world” can be used to help understand this. God didn’t just chose us and know us before, He also knew the world, what it would be like, what history it would have, how it would end. But does that mean it existed with God in the beginning too? It didn’t exist and neither did we. Jesus knew we *would* exist and to what capacity our lives would affect things, but we didn’t exist in the same sense that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit existed before the beginning.
I hope I helped you gain some understanding with this passage. Thank you for asking the question and challenging me this morning.
– Jon
very well said. I have been contemplating on this issue. This was my question before.I’m so confused and had read one of the blog who said that the ‘us” refers to wisdom. Now I know.
Thanks for this explanation.
Praise and glory be to GOD through our savior Jesus Christ. I totally agree with Benjamin regarding the falsehood of trinity. And i really hope and pray it would shed light to the believers. The only way to know the truth is to read the Bible and ask GOD for guidance and understanding. GOD’s word are powerful, organized and strong being able to support each other to correct wrong or otherwise misunderstood teachings. Basically and factually many times in the Bible the apostles and Jesus himself stressed that GOD the father is the one true GOD who created everything and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son who is our mediator. But never it was mentioned that there is trinity. We should be careful on what we say and preach especially if it pertains to GOD’s words. May the light and wisdom be given to us all. GODBLESS everyone
Didn’t Jesus say we should baptise them in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit?
I have always thought and believed exactly what you say. Tonight, I started the book of John and was struck by the phrase “in the beginning”. In the beginning of what?? for God is without beginning and without end. Is this a referral to Genesis “in the beginning” which deals with creation? Maybe I am making too much of nothing, but something deep inside says there is something profound in that verse. Anybody’s thoughts???
You are correct, there is something profound in that passage. There are only two categories of things that exist. Those things created, and those things not created. The things NOT created, is pretty simple. God. That’s it. Everything else that exists was created. In the Beginning has to refer to the beginning of everything that was created.
Which is an awesome statement. Because everything, the entire universe, used to not exist. And then BANG! God spoke, and everything was just… there. There was a beginning. The first beginning, if you will. 😀
Wisdom was with God according to Solomon 9:9. He also called wisdom “she” and was with God from the beginning. Now to answer that question. I don’t think was talking to “wisdom” in the beginning to create humans. That would be like me talking to “knowledge” to help me with my Math exam. Solomon means with your wisdom you created all things and Solomon wants that wisdom to know and to create as good as He did. Create good decisions, to have wisdom in leading Gods people like Gods creations leading by his voice in creation. That being said God was talking to some when said “us” and “our” but it wasn’t wisdom who he was talking to. It had to be someone equal to him someone already in existence.
“Both are God, both are one being, one diety, even though they are individual.” This is a contradicting statement. How can they be individual but also be one being? There is only one God. God was here first and he created Jesus. God is too great and too mighty to present himself here on this Earth. He sent his prophets to do his work for him. I’m not bashing Christianity. I’ve been a Christian for most of my life until not too long ago. I’m still searching for truth. I believe in Jesus and know he did wonderful things, I just don’t believe that Jesus is God. Is that wrong? I do pray and ask God for guidance and for him to help lead me on the right path.
Because God… To say that God only exists within our realm, that He is limited to just our rules and concepts, is to take away all that makes Him God and makes him just something natural.
Erika,
The original form of Jesus is GOD and then he took the form of MAN. Jesus has DUAL NATURE. If other people say that Jesus is MAN, accept it because that is true simply because HE TOOK the FORM of MAN therefore HE is BOUND by the TIMELINE hence, he prayed to GOD, cried, got hungry, died and all limitations of Man but never forget that despite in the BODILY form his DEITY remained in HIM (Colossians 2:9). That’s why even the Father called Him GOD (Hebrews 1:8).
John’s “in the beginning’ is generally understood as being the start od all things, i.e. creation and therefore time as well. Since the Word already existed in the beginning, he must have existed before time (and space) and was therefore “from eternity”.
John 14:28 john 20 :17 john 17 clearly states God is greater than jesus
i believe if we all read Colossians 1:15-24 we will agree with this article
and again by Reading John 17:5 Jesus was there before the world was made
god is eternal. there is no begging. if jesus was with god in the beginning, surly that means in the beginning of creation. god existed before creation, as he has always been and was and will always be. there for this, to me, specifically states that jesus was created in the beginning not at all an attribute of god.
I do really believe that the only thing a man can describe God in our human tounges is the word “trinity” because we have just only a finite being and God is infinite right? Just as it was said in His words “As the heaven is higher than the earth, so as My thoughts are higher than your thoughts niether your ways are higher than My ways”. It means that we cannot comprehend really what the nature God likes or his nature was but I’m just rellying based on what the Scriptures said without any ommission or contradiction on its verses or the Bible itself. Where in fact it was plainly said its reality and its existence of who God really was. Now the conclusion of the desputed matter is let us live to God the secrete things and the things revealed to us… Deuteromy 29:29..
Well said, and thank you for commenting. 🙂
Jesus always as existed as God but not as the ‘Son/Logos/Word’. He ’emerged’ as the Son/Logos/Word just prior to ‘the begining’ to create the world as stated in Colossians. Thus the Trinity is an economic Trinity. This is different to Oneness Pentecostalism because it states that when God became a Trinity all the qualities of Godhead associated in orthodox understanding were true. The only difference is to deny that the Son was always the Second person. Perhaps he is a ‘creation’ in the sense that one can plat one’s own hair – it does not alter your intrinsic nature. While by contrast Hebrews 11 says God created the universe out of nothing. It would be heresy to say that of the Son.
I think you are mixing up if Jesus had a beginning or the Son of God had a beginning. When the Son of God, the second person of the trinity, came to earth incarnate, Jesus was born. The Son of God always existed but Jesus did not. Jesus had a beginning 2000 odd years ago.
Oh this is just amazing explanation, I will just say God Bless you much !! 🙂
I got all my answers.
Jesus the second person of the blessed trinity have been existing before any thing. He is,he was,he is to come. God made him before the creation of heaven and earth.
Dear friends, There is a trinity. Read 1John 5:7.
Great contributions from all. Let me start by clarifying the word God. God is simply a title that is shared by all in the Godhead. We have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These are individual personality but all shared in the same Power and Authority. The father said some where in the OT. By my name Johovah was I not known to them. Which means God the Father has His name and many attributes while Gid the Son known as Jesus has his own many attributes as well as God the Holy Spirit. So the title God could be used by either because all quality to share in the equality and authority though they are individual persons. Its a great mystery.
This is another powerful revelation I received about the Godhead. God the Father had existed as a Spirit being before He took a physical form. That happened ever before the heavens and the earth were created. Jesus Christ also existed in the spirit form which John 1:1-ff describes as the Word and later became flesh. The only person in the Trinity or Godhead has is yet to take a physical form is the Holy Spirit. And if you that happens then the world will come to a complete end. That is the reason man is still relevant because anytime the Holy wants to do a thing he possesses us as human. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I hope this helps. Any questions let me know if I could explain further with scriptural references. Gid bless you all. Amen
Jesus is God in a form of man according to the book of John 1:1,2 and 14
Jesus could not have been God while he walked the earth. The bible tells us that God cannot be tempted yet Jesus was tempted in every way just as we were. Secondly, he was the second Adam, just like Adam, had no slavery to sin. Lastly, the bible tells me that Jesus emptied Himself. He did not have a bowel movement, he emptied himself of his deity and power and came to earth 100% human. If he was any part God, walking without sin would not have been a legitimate test. He had to be 100% human while on the earth, and then he picked up his mantle as God once he rose from the grave.
The concept of the trinity is complex but I have an analogy I believe in….as a man I am three in one me the spirit(religious belief),me the body and me the soul(spoken words)..then I am made in God’s image.His photo in deed.Then what is hard to believe my friends.Trust and obey.Jesus is God
Jesus mention this again about God’s name in John 17:26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known,+ so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”+